Curse

walder · Jun 10, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

It really doesn't make that much of a difference. If you are good, your are good no matter what you are wearing or what your opponent is wearing. There are plenty of people who get trashed in PvP even with Sup Vigors/Absorption, Zealout grips, etc. That extra 50 health from the sup vigor will definitely help, but its not going to decide anything in terms of the eventual outcome in a PvP match.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 10, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by walder

It really doesn't make that much of a difference. If you are good, your are good no matter what you are wearing or what your opponent is wearing. There are plenty of people who get trashed in PvP even with Sup Vigors/Absorption, Zealout grips, etc. That extra 50 health from the sup vigor will definitely help, but its not going to decide anything in terms of the eventual outcome in a PvP match.

Agreed. You basically just trashed the "unfair" argument

Akshara · Jun 10, 2005, 04:34 AM // 04:34

I think there's a little confusion here as to what happened since this last update, and so I'll try to make this clearer - anyone who knows better, please correct the following or add some insight as to what may be happening...

I'm not a "farmer" in the strict sense, ie. I don't go out and spend hours farming for loot or rare items to resell to others. I just go through the quests and missions, sometimes on my own to get more of the drops, and sometimes with a PuG or Henchmen.

What has happened since the last patch is that if you are in an area by yourself, or even with a henchman, doing a normal quest and killing creatures, after a very short period of time, killing the same type of creature triggers them to stop dropping items or gold altogether, or drop only collector items and non-rare salvage materials. If you leave that zone and re-enter to reset the instance, it doesn't reset the drops and you get nothing but experience. Eventually creatures stop dropping everywhere. Logging off and restarting doesn't seem to have an effect either.

Make sense? This has been reported and confirmed by people on this forum, as well as on the two other major GW forum sites. There has been speculation that if one completes a mission or turns in the reward for a quest, that drops are reset for that character and start again, but not enough people have reported this behavior to nail down the pattern. It's not discussed in the update notes on the GW site, but appears to be a side effect of their attempts to prohibit "bot farming" altogether.

I'm not a farmer... but I like to do several quests at once and then go turn them in all at the same time, not do them one by one. If I'm in Kryta running around the land trying to do several quests in solo mode or with a hench or two, eventually all drops stop. When I solo, I'll often get overwhelmed and die a lot, and so decide to restart back at a town and try again to lose the dealth penalty, but the next time through there aren't any drops at all... this happened to me last night.

Also last night, a friend asked me to come back to Ascalon and help him get through the Nolani mission and bonus to which I said, "sure." I'm lvl 16 and the other three were below lvl 10, and I'd already completed both the mission and bonus. During the mission, unlike on my previous run throughs, I got like zero worthwhile drops... a few non-rare armors, a shell and a charr hide - for the entire mission and bonus. Meanwhile my friend and the others got all kinds of drops on just about every creature. At first I didn't think anything of it, just thought it was bad luck. But as the mission continued, I started wondering what the heck was going on... it wasn't normal, as I've gone through previous missions with high level characters before and never had such poor drops or lack thereof altogether. So not only did I get like zero experience for helping out, but I got hardly any items to sell to the merchant as well. I remember going through a mission with a full party and having my inventory crammed with stuff, or having to salvage items to make room during the mission... now i'm lucky to fill up the backpack.

On another site, a level 20 reported that he went back to help someone through an Ascalon mission today and didn't get a single drop the entire mission. So there is something going on here.

Dax · Jun 10, 2005, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

Tiger Woods wouldn't have an unfair advantage, he would just be a better player. There is a big difference.

Why? He got that way by spending hours on the course practicing and has sponser that give him the best clubs money can buy....I can't afford to spend the time nor the money, I'm just a casual player. (wink)

eA-Zaku · Jun 10, 2005, 04:46 AM // 04:46

The very fact that the farmers have more time than the casual gamer is the problem. Not the farming itself. You say it's unfair because the farmer has more time, which he uses to farm.

Okay, let's say the farmer uses his time (which is greater than the casual gamer's) to improve on his PvP playing. Heaven forbid practicing PvP is an unfair advantage!

But lo and behold, bet you some whiny snob will come and say that the farmer has an unfair advantage in the fact that he has more time to practice PvP, and therefore kicks the snot out of the casual gamer. Same with farming, except it's dealing with items.

Mistress Eyahl · Jun 10, 2005, 04:49 AM // 04:49

The Tiger Woods comparison doesn't make sence. No-one who farms was born with the talent to do so over everyone else. Understand that. Farming compared to golf, is like... well. Lets say winning the PGA tour is the same as getting a superior vigor (although it's not cos golf requires skill) BUT we'll use the example in the sence of repetition.

Imagine you're not playing ANYone.. just out there by yourself. You need to make a birdie on every par. If you do that, you win! Oh and by the way.. your birdie relys on something out of your control. (This is the randomness whether you get a drop or not.)
Okay, so you've won. Do this MANY many times.. say for like, 100 YEARS.. that's how you can even come close to comparing Tiger Woods with Farming. A golfer would need to do that to be in with a shot of getting as many wins as Tiger.

Oh and, the non farmers are the people who play against other people, and hit a birdie through luck once in a while.

PGA - The drop
Birdie - The requirements to aquire that drop which are out of your control (meaning there's no defined skill involved)
100 years - The repetition to get all the drops you want, ie. no-one gets them all first time round.

Tuna · Jun 10, 2005, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by walder

It really doesn't make that much of a difference. If you are good, your are good no matter what you are wearing or what your opponent is wearing. There are plenty of people who get trashed in PvP even with Sup Vigors/Absorption, Zealout grips, etc. That extra 50 health from the sup vigor will definitely help, but its not going to decide anything in terms of the eventual outcome in a PvP match.

I think I need to explain the veiwpoint of a PvPer. This game is essentially a large scale version of paper rock scissors. To keep this analogy simple, we are going to use just those 3 things to represent different builds that counter eachother the same way they do in the hand game. Typically, paper beats rock, rock beats scissors, and scissors beats paper. Now if we assume a team decked out in runes is for example rock+1 then we have this:

Rock+1>Scissors
Rock+1<Paper
Rock+1>Rock

Now of course a team doesn't always face an exact mirror such as rock vs rock, but a vs a similar build it would work the same way as this analogy. If you want to argue that regular rock could beat rock+1 with enough skill, just add +1 or +2 to regular rock to account for skill. Oh goodness, I just realized I derived that items = skill

Akshara · Jun 10, 2005, 04:59 AM // 04:59

Quote:

Birdie - The requirements to aquire that drop which are out of your control (meaning there's no defined skill involved)

If you're implying that hitting birdies in reality is random chance or that there is no skill involved, then you obviously do not play golf. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like you're suggesting. Hitting a birdie on every shot takes enormous skill and practice.

Quote:

ie. no-one gets them all first time round.

And after this last update, neither on the second, or the third, or the fourth...

ManadartheHealer · Jun 10, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Oh goodness, I just realized I derived that items = skill

No. Runes are not "rock+1". Runes make the build somewhat different, because they affect attribute distribution. The "+#" addition would account for actual skill (tactics/strategy). A plain "rock build" would simply be "rock", but a runed rock build would be something different ("Granite" for example).

This would look like...

Rock<Granite<Limestone<Pebbles<Rock

Of course, not that simple

The Pope · Jun 10, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManadartheHealer

Agreed. You basically just trashed the "unfair" argument

He didn't trash anything. I agree that it could be more unfair than it is. I agree that skill is more important than items. I agree that being shot in the head is worse than being shot in the foot. That doesn't make it a good thing.

Or is using unlimited money codes in an RTS not a cheat because other games contain god mode?

People should earn their HoH wins and ladder ranking, not just get easy wins because they've been around for a long time.

ManadartheHealer · Jun 10, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Pope

People should earn their HoH wins and ladder ranking, not just get easy wins because they've been around for a long time.

I agree. But farming does not necessarily mean an unfair advantage. Generally, if the opposing team is sufficiently more skilled then their "farming" opponents, they will win...

Dax · Jun 10, 2005, 05:07 AM // 05:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dyeeo

Does it take a ton of time to create a farming character? No. If you started a character and you really really want to farm then there is a reason why AreaNet gave you four character slots. Dont have the time to create another character? Change your secondary and buy the skills. Actual farming doesnt take that much time.

Exactly. Seems like most of the more popular MMO games nowadays almost bend over backward for the casual gamer (PvE). This game you don't have to run from town to town, there is no crafting skill needed, every area is instanced (go out kill, zone, rinse, repeat), AND your characters all share the same storage. I won't even mention the fact you can hire henchmen if you can't find a group (and when I say hire...I mean free). Gad I've waited for parties in FF longer than I've played this game.

For me right now I go out and farm crafting materials for 15 minutes before work.... I've gotten 1 gold item, and was pretty stoked. The quest are getting a little challenging and I usually get schooled in PvP. I know eventually I will be able to hold my own, but it's the getting there thats part of the fun.

BlaineTog · Jun 10, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dax

Why? He got that way by spending hours on the course practicing and has sponser that give him the best clubs money can buy....I can't afford to spend the time nor the money, I'm just a casual player. (wink)

Of course.

But Guild Wars is not real life. Guild Wars is meant to cut out all that repetition and get straight to the fun parts.

Akshara · Jun 10, 2005, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Ahem, *cough*...

Quote:

What has happened since the last patch is that if you are in an area by yourself, or even with a henchman, doing a normal quest and killing creatures, after a very short period of time, killing the same type of creature triggers them to stop dropping items or gold altogether, or drop only collector items and non-rare salvage materials. If you leave that zone and re-enter to reset the instance, it doesn't reset the drops and you get nothing but experience. Eventually creatures stop dropping everywhere. Logging off and restarting doesn't seem to have an effect either.

Quoted since my earlier post didn't seem to make an impact on this discussion whatsoever.

There are two types of "farmers"...

1) The evil bad guys who farm to rip off the poor noobs, get a guild hall yesterday, or gain an advantage in PvP sooner than your average mortal. They screw up the economy, and spam chat the trade channel for hours on end. According to this thread and others like it, these people are the scum of the earth and need to get a life.

2) The normal, everyday player who likes to go on quests alone or with henchmen to get a larger share of drops, looking for cool items or things to sell to the merchants or other players in town for extra cash. Often they follow the quests and missions, give cool items away or cheaply which would be a shame to drop off at the merchant, and pretty much only want to get enough to buy that really cool dragon armor at some point.

Under the current situation, group 2 is being penalized because of the actions of group 1 and the nefarious "bot farmers."

Volarian · Jun 10, 2005, 05:18 AM // 05:18

In order to get the +3, Sup Vigor etc etc., which gives this "unfair" advantage....they farm.....so you're NOT against farming??

that whole comment goes back on itself, and then to say that someone who just played thru the game and possibly had the luck to get a Sup Vig drop along with a Sup that went with their class falls in the same category....hmmm to quote the game I'm hitting control+condition - I HAVE BLIND ON ME!!!!
w/e

Laurelin Goldtree · Jun 10, 2005, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by CtrlAltDel

farming accelerates the introduction of items/gold into the games economy, thus throwing it out of wack and driving the game closer to D2...

LOL. Meph Runs! Countess Runs! Baal Runs! Wow, that brings back memories.

If GW got like Diablo, I'd ditch it for the next game that came out (just like I did with LOD).

Mistress Eyahl · Jun 10, 2005, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akshara

If you're implying that hitting birdies in reality is random chance or that there is no skill involved, then you obviously do not play golf. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what it sounds like you're suggesting. Hitting a birdie on every shot takes enormous skill and practice.

Read what I said. I said "Oh.. and by the way, a birdie relys on something out of your control". That's what I meant when you couldn't compare golf to farming. Because you success at golf IS in your control, it's based on your skill and natural abilities. Farming is based on repetition. Read the WHOLE post before you question others.

And that little key at the bottom was just so people could understand what each bit was.

Dax · Jun 10, 2005, 05:24 AM // 05:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mistress Eyahl

The Tiger Woods comparison doesn't make sence. No-one who farms was born with the talent to do so over everyone else. Understand that. Farming compared to golf, is like... well. Lets say winning the PGA tour is the same as getting a superior vigor (although it's not cos golf requires skill) BUT we'll use the example in the sence of repetition.

Heheh well, you're reading way too much into it. My only point is/or was that people who invest the time and practice will always have an advantage over someone who plays casually. If golfing had team play (show's how much I know about golf) and Tiger was on thier team, that would be an unfair advantage would it not? I'm sure he had lots of talent to start out with but he has the luxury of playing with the best equipment anytime he wants.

Now I could have picked a better example I admit, but I didn't think someone was going to start comparing birdies to character skills....lol.

I would have to think that before they were enjoying the glamour life in GW, the people who kick butt had to spend a bit a time and practice to get where they are. ...or did they somehow get a version of the game I didn't.

Akshara · Jun 10, 2005, 05:31 AM // 05:31

Quote:

Read the WHOLE post before you question others.

Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I did read it several times, because it was confusing to me. Didn't quite get the whole metaphor thing you were going for, but that's cool. No need to get confrontational, I wasn't attacking...

Akshara · Jun 10, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Quote:

Oh.. and by the way, a birdie relys on something out of your control

Guess that's the part that made no sense. In golf, a birdie relies on your skill and ability, not something out of your control. It's not luck. Pro golfers hit birdie's because they want to, and miss because of luck, not the other way around. Just an fyi...